Scoxit- Now what?

I counted Nicola Sturgeon say “independence” 19 times, “mandate” 28 times and “referendum” only 4 times yesterday. And yet according to the Telegraph on the 10th December, 2 thirds of her candidates had dropped the word “independence” from their campaign leaflets.

Are the Scottish people really up for another “independence” referendum and if so what will the question be which is put to them? Considering the UK’s 3.5 year debacle after the dichotomy of LEAVE or REMAIN.

@divegeester

there will be no scottish exit to the EU and no independence.

london will give more freedom to hollyrood and all will be at peace.

the scots did not vote yesterday to leave the UK.

they voted for more freedom within the brexit union.

@mister-moggy said
@divegeester
there will be no scottish exit to the EU and no independence.
london will give more freedom to hollyrood and all will be at peace.
the scots did not vote yesterday to leave the UK.
they voted for more freedom within the brexit union.

Yes yes, but let’s pretend.

@divegeester said
I counted Nicola Sturgeon say “independence” 19 times, “mandate” 28 times and “referendum” only 4 times yesterday. And yet according to the Telegraph on the 10th December, 2 thirds of her candidates had dropped the word “independence” from their campaign leaflets.

Are the Scottish people really up for another “independence” referendum and if so what will the question ...[text shortened]... which is put to them? Considering the UK’s 3.5 year debacle after the dichotomy of LEAVE or REMAIN.

Did I miss that the People in Scotland just overwhelmingly voted for a Party who's platform says:

"The Scottish Government has published legislation to pave the way for a new referendum on Scottish independence.

The SNP Scottish Government has a clear mandate to offer the people of Scotland a choice. The SNP has won three elections – the Scottish Parliament election in 2016, the General Election in 2017 and the European Parliament election this year – with an explicit commitment in our manifesto on holding a referendum.

The Scottish Parliament has also agreed to deliver a referendum on Scottish independence."

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-does-the-snp-have-a-mandate-for-a-referendum-on-scotland-s-future/

And:

"An independence referendum within this parliamentary term will give Scotland the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation – rather than have a Brexit future imposed upon us.

The Scottish Government has published legislation to pave the way for a new referendum on Scottish independence."

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-will-there-be-another-independence-referendum/

IF the Scottish People really aren't up for another independence referendum, it's kinda odd that they put into the Commons an overwhelming majority from a political party that explicitly supports it.

@no1marauder

yes. because you look at campaign banners and listen to the BBC.

this is why you miss it.

try to learn.

try to think.

@mister-moggy said
@no1marauder

yes. because you look at campaign banners and listen to the BBC.

this is why you miss it.

try to learn.

try to think.

Actually, I didn't do either.

@no1marauder

yes, i know you did not think.

and yes, i know you do not want to learn.

@divegeester
Ah, so it's not South Carolina exit. Whew, was worried there for a sec😉

@no1marauder said
Did I miss that the People in Scotland just overwhelmingly voted for a Party who's platform says:

"The Scottish Government has published legislation to pave the way for a new referendum on Scottish independence.

The SNP Scottish Government has a clear mandate to offer the people of Scotland a choice. The SNP has won three elections – the Scottish Parliament election ...[text shortened]... ey put into the Commons an overwhelming majority from a political party that explicitly supports it.

You do not understand the UK voting system.

Pro-independence parties got about 45% of the vote, while pro-Union parties got ~55% of the vote. That is the about same result as the 2014 referendum. The SNP winning almost all of the seats in Scotland is A) not new (they actually won more in 2015) and B) not a reflection of their actual support amongst the public or of support for independence because of FPTP.

Scottish independence as an issue hasn't gone away (it will be on the table until independence is won or the SNP lose the next referendum) but concluding that there's suddenly overwhelming support for independence based on the results of an FPTP election would be an incorrect conclusion. The pro-independence parties together won roughly what the Tories won nationwide. It's hardly "overwhelming" - it just seems that way because of FPTP distortion, which is made even worse by the SNP's support being concentrated in a single region.

@mister-moggy said
@no1marauder

yes, i know you did not think.

and yes, i know you do not want to learn.

Petty insults from such an irrational poster mean very little.

Perhaps someone else will have some substantive comment on my post which, after all, quotes the SNP's own website and is in line with their actions including voting about a month ago in the Scottish Parliament for a second referendum. https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14882/analysis-referendums-bill-passes-its-first-stage-what-does-mean-independence

@ashiitaka said
You do not understand the UK voting system.

Pro-independence parties got about 45% of the vote, while pro-Union parties got ~55% of the vote. That is the about same result as the 2014 referendum. The SNP winning almost all of the seats in Scotland is A) not new (they actually won more in 2015) and B) not a reflection of their actual support amongst the public or of supp ...[text shortened]... PTP distortion, which is made even worse by the SNP's support being concentrated in a single region.

I understand representative government; do you?

Does your logic extend to the UK as a whole; Conservatives got even less of a percentage in the UK then the SNP did in Scotland - does that mean policies supported by the Tories shouldn't be implemented?

@no1marauder said
I understand representative government; do you?

Does your logic extend to the UK as a whole; Conservatives got even less of a percentage in the UK then the SNP did in Scotland - does that mean policies supported by the Tories shouldn't be implemented?

Representative democracy can take many different forms. From your writings in the other thread and in this one, I have deduced that your knowledge of FPTP (and of recent political history in the UK) is lacking completely.

The last sentence is an absurd strawman, but I am tired of explaining this to you.

@ashiitaka said
"Representative Democracy" can take many different forms. From your writings in the other thread and in this one, I have deduced that your knowledge of FPTP is lacking completely

The last sentence is an absurd strawman, but I am tired of explaining this to you.

That's not a very convincing dodge. IF the SNP's victory in Scotland doesn't mean its policies should be implemented just because it didn't get an absolute majority of votes cast, why should Conservative policies be implemented throughout the UK when it didn't get an absolute majority of votes cast either (in fact, it got a lower percentage of votes in the UK than the SNP got in Scotland and scored a lower percentage of seats)?

I'm perfectly aware of what FPTP means.

@no1marauder said
That's not a very convincing dodge. IF the SNP's victory in Scotland doesn't mean its policies should be implemented just because it didn't get an absolute majority of votes cast, why should Conservative policies be implemented throughout the UK when it didn't get an absolute majority of votes cast either (in fact, it got a lower percentage of votes in the UK than the SNP got in Scotland and scored a lower percentage of seats)?

I'm perfectly aware of what FPTP means.

Your post is an absurd strawman because all that I pointed out was that the SNP's result in terms of *seats* (inflated by FPTP and regional concentration) should not be conflated with popular support for independence. I made no mention of whether it should be implemented.

On that topic, which I will only discuss now, nothing new or magical has happened that has not already happened in the last five years with regard to the SNP. They won *more seats* in 2015 (which was AFTER the 2014 referendum) than they did now, yet that was not enough for another referendum. Why? Referenda are far bigger deals than ordinary government policy. They take massive amounts of organization, are costly, prolonged, divisive and damaging for the economy. If we had to have a referendum every time the SNP won an inflated number of seats because of FPTP, we would have had a referendum in 2014 (the original), 2015, perhaps at the local elections, 2017 and now. Scotland would be in a state of perpetual referenda.

With regard to independence, *little or nothing has actually changed* in terms of support for it. Polls (and this election) consistently show that support is at roughly the same level as it was when the SNP lost the last one. To keep pointlessly re-doing something so serious when there has actually been no change in opinion simply based on the fluctuation of *seats* in a heavily distorted system and region that included other issues all to keep delivering the exact same result over and over would be stupid. It was promised as "once in a generation" precisely because referenda are such serious things. Re-doing it without a substantial shift in support (also, the number of people who think another one should be held now is lower than the support for independence) is unthinkable.

@ashiitaka said
Your post is an absurd strawman because all that I pointed out was that the SNP's result in terms of *seats* (inflated by FPTP and regional concentration) should not be conflated with popular support for independence. I made no mention of whether it should be implemented.

On that topic, which I will only discuss now, nothing new or magical has happened that has not alrea ...[text shortened]... nk another one should be held now is lower than the support for independence) is unthinkable.

The SNP specifically campaigned on the issue of a second referendum in Scotland.

The Conservatives specifically campaigned in Scotland in opposition to a second referendum.

The SNP smashed the Conservatives in Scotland.

IF a second referendum is now not arranged, the will of the People of Scotland as expressed by the election results will have been disregarded.

What about that is most difficult for you to grasp? The SNP has claimed that a Brexit has fundamentally changed the situation vis-a-vis independence and that party has been rewarded by the voters of Scotland for their positions. Conservatives have made the same argument you have made and been rejected by Scotland's voters.

IF the rest of the UK insist on Brexit, Scotland's voters, by supporting the SNP, have indicated they want to re-examine the issue of independence.

EDIT: While turnout was down in the rest of the UK, in Scotland:

"Scotland’s turnout was up on the previous election with 68.1% of the electorate voting compared to 66.5% in 2017. "

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election-2019-how-high-was-turnout-in-scotland-and-the-uk-1-5061958

This may well be another indication that political reality has shifted in Scotland since 2014 due to Brexit.