1. Standard membervivify
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    26 Nov '20 01:471 edit
    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/527513-gaetz-trump-should-pardon-everyone-including-himself-to-quench

    Gaetz: Trump 'should pardon everyone' including himself to quash liberal 'bloodlust'

    Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) called on President Trump to “wield the presidential pardon power effectively and robustly” while appearing on Fox News’s "The Ingraham Angle" on Tuesday.

    The House Judiciary Committee member, a vocal Trump ally, told anchor Tammy Bruce that "President Trump should pardon Michael Flynn. He should pardon the Thanksgiving turkey. He should pardon everyone from himself to his administration officials to Joe Exotic if he has to.”

    He continued, “You see from the radical left a bloodlust that will only be quenched if they come after the people who worked so hard to animate the Trump administration with the policies and the vigor and the effectiveness that delivered for the American people.”
  2. Standard membervivify
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    26 Nov '20 01:491 edit
    And now it begins.

    Trump's election robbery failed, so the next best thing? Float around talk of pardoning himself until it catches on. The idea will pick up slowly in the media, being laughed off at first, until it gains steam with conservatives and Trump being painted as a victim of the evil left.
  3. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 02:001 edit
    @vivify said
    And now it begins.

    Trump's election robbery failed, so the next best thing? Float around talk of pardoning himself until it catches on. The idea will pick up slowly in the media, being laughed off at first, until it gains steam with conservatives and Trump being painted as a victim of the evil left.
    What do you think the popular reaction will be if Trump tries to pardon himself?

    When Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon:

    ""Ford, who had been at around 70% approval, plummeted some 30 points in the polls almost immediately," political commentator Pat Buchanan said in "Race for the White House." "It was one of the worst blows to hit any presidency in my lifetime."

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/13/politics/gerald-ford-richard-nixon-pardon-wolf-what-matters/index.html

    Let him try. Every House Republican will have to face the voters in less than two years and explain why they supported this. And if they publicly don't, they'll have to face the possibility of primary challenges from jerks like Gaetz.

    That will be fun and another step in the dissolution of the GOP as a serious electoral threat.
  4. Standard membervivify
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    26 Nov '20 03:384 edits
    @no1marauder said
    What do you think the popular reaction will be if Trump tries to pardon himself?

    When Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon:

    ""Ford, who had been at around 70% approval, plummeted some 30 points in the polls almost immediately," political commentator Pat Buchanan said in "Race for the White House." "It was one of the worst blows to hit any presidency in my lifetime."
    That's pretty irrelevant since Trump is gone in two months. Trump has nothing to lose by pardoning himself. Don't think for one second Trump cares more about the Republican party's image than himself.

    Let him try. Every House Republican will have to face the voters in less than two years and explain why they supported this. And if they publicly don't, they'll have to face the possibility of primary challenges from jerks like Gaetz.

    Mitch McConnell was reelected despite his incredible list of corrupt acts. None of Trump's despicable acts were enough for Dems to flip the Senate.

    What you don't yet realize is that this type of corruption makes Republicans more popular with their base, not less. Mitch McConnell openly bragged about blocking Obama's SCOTUS pick, saying it was the highlight of his career. He smugly said "we'd fill it" when asked about an open SCOTUS seat during Trump's reelection.

    Yet, McConnell won reelection. So did Susan Collins. So did Ted Cruz.

    You keep making posts about how Republican careers will suffer if the GOP acts in a corrupt manner; that's not the case at all. Trump got MORE votes than last time, with Biden being the only person in U.S. history get more votes than Trump...and even that was by an incredibly thin margin, less than one percent in several states.

    Trump pardoning himself will have no effect on the GOP.
  5. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 03:46
    @vivify said
    That's pretty irrelevant since Trump is gone in two months. Trump has nothing to lose by pardoning himself. Don't think for one second Trump cares more about the Republican party's image than himself.

    [b]Let him try. Every House Republican will have to face the voters in less than two years and explain why they supported this. And if they publicly don't, they'll have t ...[text shortened]... ess than one percent in several states.

    Trump pardoning himself will have no effect on the GOP.
    LMAO! Your posts continue to vastly overrate the significance of the Trump "base"; you really thought it was going to get him re-elected.

    I see no political or legal (it won't be upheld if challenged by a Federal prosecution though I find such a prosecution unlikely) downside for progressives IF Trump pardons himself and plenty of potential upside for the reasons already given. So I hope he follows Gaetz's advice and does so.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    @no1marauder said
    LMAO! Your posts continue to vastly overrate the significance of the Trump "base"; you really thought it was going to get him re-elected.
    Before the pandemic, yes. I stated multiple times on this forum *after* Trump's mishandling of the pandemic that he would lose. Prior to March, I wasn't far off: Trump received the more votes this time than in 2016, the second highest in U.S. history. The fact that Biden needed more votes than any other candidate ever to run, just to beat Trump, speaks volumes.

    I see no political or legal (it won't be upheld if challenged by a Federal prosecution though I find such a prosecution unlikely) downside for progressives IF Trump pardons himself and plenty of potential upside for the reasons already given. So I hope he follows Gaetz's advice and does so.

    Trump getting away with crimes is a major downside; not just for progressives, for the country. Trump pardoning himself would allow him to build an attack against Biden for the next 4 years, while plotting to be reelected in 2024.

    Trump pardoning himself could encourage the GOP to continue blocking Biden just like they did with Obama, if they think Trump has a good chance of being president again. If Trump fails in pardoning himself, he's out of the picture due to his massive legal woes.

    Politics aside, a self-pardon would be a travesty for Democracy and a shameful stain on this country.
  7. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 04:20
    @vivify said
    Before the pandemic, yes. I stated multiple times on this forum *after* Trump's mishandling of the pandemic that he would lose. And before March, I wasn't far off: Trump received the more votes this time than in 2016, the second highest in U.S. history. The fact that Biden needed more votes than any other candidate ever to run, just to beat Trump, speaks volumes.

    ...[text shortened]... olitics aside, a self-pardon would be a travesty for Democracy and a shameful stain on this country.
    As I already showed you, the pandemic had no discernible effect on the election. Biden led before the pandemic by about what he'll wind up winning the popular vote by. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

    At no point do it ever look like Trump was going to win, so you were wrong before the pandemic.

    That there was a heavy turnout doesn't "speak volumes" at least in the way you are framing it. Biden, a rather mediocre candidate (though with decent favorability ratings) wound up getting more votes than any Presidential candidate in history. So the story is the opposite of what you keep stressing, Donald Trump was solidly rejected by the American People in a way few incumbent Presidents have been. His "base" isn't anywhere near as influential as you thought and still think.

    What's the use of crying about it? IF Trump wants to pardon himself, he will. It won't work if he's prosecuted for Federal crimes anyway (which he probably won't be). He's almost certain to get indicted in New York state for all sorts of financial crimes and a federal pardon is useless against such charges. So if you're salivating about the Donald going to prison, a self-pardon doesn't mean s**t.

    But it will be unpopular and will put Republicans in a pickle. So from a political point of view, it has upside for progressives and nothing but downside for right wingers.

    So bring it on.
  8. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 04:24
    This poll is a couple of years old and sure the percentages would go up a bit if Trump actually did it but:

    "85 percent think it would be unacceptable for presidents to pardon themselves if charged with a crime,"

    https://apnews.com/article/6be595578f274c5b9875297d02772263
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    26 Nov '20 04:29
    As to why a Presidential self-pardon would be invalid, I'll give the floor to Elizabeth Holtzman (one of my all time favorite Congresspersons):

    "Think of it. If presidents could self-pardon, they could rape, steal or murder while in office and be immune from federal prosecution. They could commit treason, conspire with another country to get elected, or take bribes from foreign governments without fear of any criminal punishment.

    The framers believed they could deter presidents from committing crimes by ensuring criminal prosecution if they did. The Constitution makes it clear that impeachment and removal from office would not be a sufficient penalty, specifying that an impeached and removed president “shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

    Presidential self-pardon would render this provision meaningless, and there are no meaningless provisions in the Constitution. Basic rules of constitutional interpretation reject readings that would hollow out constitutional provisions.
    Both the Constitution's text and debates at the Constitutional Convention show that the framers intended miscreant presidents could be prosecuted. "

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/11/15/presidential-pardon-donald-trump-not-good-idea-column/6269871002/
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  11. Standard membervivify
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    @no1marauder said
    As I already showed you, the pandemic had no discernible effect on the election. Biden led before the pandemic by about what he'll wind up winning the popular vote by. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html
    As far as I can tell, your link doesn't seem to show polling data from before March, which is when lockdowns started. The earliest poll seems to be from September.

    At no point do it ever look like Trump was going to win

    You said the same thing in 2016.

    Donald Trump was solidly rejected by the American People in a way few incumbent Presidents have been.

    73 million votes in an election where several states were decided by less than 1 percent is not a "solid rejection".

    His "base" isn't anywhere near as influential as you thought and still think.

    His base is the reason why Republicans were afraid to stand up to Trump. Opposing Trump was too risky for their careers. The only Republican to vote against Trump in the impeachment was Romney, who already announced he wasn't seeking reelection.

    Fox News, for the first time in decades, lost viewers due to anger over reporting that Trump fans didn't like.

    Trump's base is far more influential than you think, at least to Republicans.
  12. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 04:45
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Of course I meant to say he was never the favorite to win the election, not that he never had a chance to. I pegged his chances before the pandemic at 25% I believe.
  13. Standard memberno1marauder
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    @vivify said
    As far as I can tell, your link doesn't seem to show polling data from before March, which is when lockdowns started. The earliest poll seems to be from September.

    At no point do it ever look like Trump was going to win

    You said the same thing in 2016.

    Donald Trump was solidly rejected by the American People in a way few incumbent Presidents have been.
    ...[text shortened]... fans didn't like.

    Trump's base is far more influential than you think, at least to Republicans.
    Look at the graph, Vivify.

    You should simply have the good grace to say you were wrong.

    I'm not going to keep repeating myself; an incumbent President losing by more than 7 million votes and at least 4% is a "solid rejection".

    Once Trump is out of office, his "base" won't have the slightest interest in him.

    Come back in a year and we'll see who's right if Trump does self-pardon.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    26 Nov '20 04:50
    @no1marauder said
    As to why a Presidential self-pardon would be invalid, I'll give the floor to Elizabeth Holtzman (one of my all time favorite Congresspersons):

    "Think of it. If presidents could self-pardon, they could rape, steal or murder while in office and be immune from federal prosecution. They could commit treason, conspire with another country to get elected, or take bribes fro ...[text shortened]... today.com/story/opinion/2020/11/15/presidential-pardon-donald-trump-not-good-idea-column/6269871002/
    I agree. Amy Coney Barrett however....

    Hopefully, enough Justices have integrity when it's inevitably taken to SCOTUS.
  15. Standard memberno1marauder
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    26 Nov '20 04:52
    @vivify said
    I agree. Amy Coney Barrett however....

    Hopefully, enough Justices have integrity when it's inevitably taken to SCOTUS.
    I suspect he'd lose 9-0.
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