1. Standard membervivify
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    06 Aug '22 03:521 edit
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/5/israel-hits-gaza-with-air-strikes-as-tensions-escalate

    This attack from Gaza is apparently a response to Israel's arrest of a senior Palestinian leader, and after border closures stopping fuel from reaching the sole power plant in Gaza. Israel fired back, as always, much harder.

    I agree that the conflict is largely the fault of Israel, though there have been times Palestinians made unprovoked attacks. But there's always been something that bothered me about this that I couldn't quite put my finger on, I finally realized what that is.

    When Gaza fires rockets into Israel they are not fighting the Israeli government; they are killing civilians. This is not like when "insurgents" in Iraq attacked the invading military; innocent civilians are being killed. So despites Gaza's actions being understandable (the blockade, food, fuel and energy being denied by Israel) that has always been my problem with the retaliations: "we'll kill your civilians for what your government had done". I didn't realize that was my issue until now.

    That said: Israel's cruel practices have killed incomparably more innocent people; their blockade as well this latest action of closing a border vital to Gaza forces their hand into these attacks. "You're killing our innocent people; so we'll kill yours".

    Other sources I've read indicate Gaza may escalate this to war. The U.S. has made a big deal about letting Ukrainian citizens be able to escape the conflict: so why not the Palestinians?
  2. Standard memberBeowulf
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    06 Aug '22 04:59
    @vivify

    You're the type who finds an excuse for every stain on the world.
  3. Standard memberBeowulf
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    06 Aug '22 05:071 edit
    @vivify

    Your diatribe is condoning attacks by Palestinians because they got their ass beat so many times.

    You are one sick Fuk.

    Total Loser Mentality.
  4. Standard membervivify
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    06 Aug '22 11:211 edit
    I don't condone any of the strikes, from either side. I simply understand where they're coming from.

    Gaza is a severely oppressed nation who instead of giving up the fight for land chooses to attack Israeli civilians. I've seen calls for Ukraine to give up land and stop fighting from the same people who wouldn't do the same for Gaza. They blame Ukraine for not giving into into Russia as more Ukrainians get slaughtered while claiming Palestinians are right to keep fighting Israel. That bugs me.

    Then there are people like you who are entirely uniformed about the scale of Israel's brutality toward Israel. Because you're a right-winger you were raised to believe Israel is God's chosen people while Arabs are animals who deserve to die.

    I'm convinced that the blind hatred for one side or the other is what keeps anyone from coming up with a solution for peace.
  5. S. Korea
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    06 Aug '22 11:31
    The best quotation on t his topic comes from Noam Chomsky, an American Jew:

    "you take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all but I am to blame. I shot a rocket back."


    The rocket strikes of the Palestinians are largely fruitless, but it is also the case that the Palestinians have no means of waging symmetrical warfare against Israel, and they cannot really attack Israel directly in any way. Israel is also propped up entirely by Western technology and investment, including even the donations of private oligarchs.

    The worst part is that the Trump administration even recently went about and got unprincipled Arab countries to sign onto strange agreements about no longer criticizing Israel. Really, there's not that many left that truly stand with Palestine.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    06 Aug '22 11:37
    Phil, this is one of the rare times I wholeheartedly agree with you.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Aug '22 12:47
    @vivify said
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/5/israel-hits-gaza-with-air-strikes-as-tensions-escalate

    This attack from Gaza is apparently a response to Israel's arrest of a senior Palestinian leader, and after border closures stopping fuel from reaching the sole power plant in Gaza. Israel fired back, as always, much harder.

    I agree that the conflict is largely the fault of Is ...[text shortened]... g deal about letting Ukrainian citizens be able to escape the conflict: so why not the Palestinians?
    Are Gaza rockets always aimed at civilian areas?

    Israel considers any attack a terrorist one whether it is directed at a military or civilian target.
  8. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    06 Aug '22 14:081 edit
    @vivify said
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/5/israel-hits-gaza-with-air-strikes-as-tensions-escalate

    This attack from Gaza is apparently a response to Israel's arrest of a senior Palestinian leader, and after border closures stopping fuel from reaching the sole power plant in Gaza. Israel fired back, as always, much harder.

    I agree that the conflict is largely the fault of Is ...[text shortened]... g deal about letting Ukrainian citizens be able to escape the conflict: so why not the Palestinians?
    Are you sure you read / interpreted the link correctly it’s actually Israel that fired a missile right into the heart of an urban civilian area reportedly killing 11 people one of which was a young girl.
    Israel claims to have made the ‘preemptive’ strike due to ‘threats’ made regarding their arrest of a leader of an armed Palestinian group. It seems Palestinians cannot even make verbal threats against their oppressors without being murdered in their own homes"
  9. Standard membervivify
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    06 Aug '22 15:29
    @kevcvs57 said
    Are you sure you read / interpreted the link correctly it’s actually Israel that fired a missile right into the heart of an urban civilian area reportedly killing 11 people one of which was a young girl.
    Israel claims to have made the ‘preemptive’ strike due to ‘threats’ made regarding their arrest of a leader of an armed Palestinian group. It seems Palestinians cannot even make verbal threats against their oppressors without being murdered in their own homes"
    Then I got the order of events wrong.

    This wave of conflict started after the arrest of the Palestinian leader while Israel also closed off a vital border.
    Israel heavily attacked Gaza with a pre-emptive strike, Gaza then responded. That sounds correct, right?

    My point remains that Israel's actions force Gaza's hand but this wasn't even such a case; Gaza is acting in self-defense.
  10. Standard membervivify
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    06 Aug '22 15:42
    @no1marauder said
    Are Gaza rockets always aimed at civilian areas?

    Israel considers any attack a terrorist one whether it is directed at a military or civilian target.
    "The victims of aggression are not absolved of their responsibility to conduct their operations by the rules of war."---No1Marauder

    The same applies here when when Gaza does attack civilian targets. That's my one and only issue with Gaza and why harsh reprisals from Israel are understandable. Gaza would be damn near blameless if they stuck to only military targets.

    But even then, as I mentioned before, Israel's oppression seems to force their hand; that must always be considered even when they do attack civilian targets. I understand why Palestinians don't care about killing Israeli civilians given the human rights tragedy happening at the hands of the Israeli government.

    This is the vicious cycle people on both sides of the debate ignoring.
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    06 Aug '22 15:44
    @vivify said
    I don't condone any of the strikes, from either side. I simply understand where they're coming from.

    Gaza is a severely oppressed nation who instead of giving up the fight for land chooses to attack Israeli civilians. I've seen calls for Ukraine to give up land and stop fighting from the same people who wouldn't do the same for Gaza. They blame Ukraine for not giving ...[text shortened]... lind hatred for one side or the other is what keeps anyone from coming up with a solution for peace.
    'Gaza is a severely oppressed nation '

    you ignorant fool
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Aug '22 15:44
    @vivify said
    Then I got the order of events wrong.

    This wave of conflict started after the arrest of the Palestinian leader while Israel also closed off a vital border.
    Israel heavily attacked Gaza with a pre-emptive strike, Gaza then responded. That sounds correct, right?

    My point remains that Israel's actions force Gaza's hand but this wasn't even such a case; Gaza is acting in self-defense.
    It's self-defense if the rockets are directed at military targets but not if they are attacking civilian areas.

    Nonetheless, Israel is, as usual, using disproportionate force in its operations.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Aug '22 15:45
    @mott-the-hoople said
    'Gaza is a severely oppressed nation '

    you ignorant fool
    Gaza is a prison for the "crime" of being Palestinian.
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    06 Aug '22 20:55
    @vivify said
    "The victims of aggression are not absolved of their responsibility to conduct their operations by the rules of war."---No1Marauder

    The same applies here when when Gaza does attack civilian targets. That's my one and only issue with Gaza and why harsh reprisals from Israel are understandable. Gaza would be damn near blameless if they stuck to only military targets.

    But ...[text shortened]... the Israeli government.

    This is the vicious cycle people on both sides of the debate ignoring.
    Hardly a contest....Check, the casualty rates...
    Like 1000 to 1(?)...........Talk about terrorism,
    The Israelis, continue to occupy The West Bank
    and have built more, and more settlements despite
    their previous agreements not to. This land was stolen from Palestine, by England at the end of WWI and ceded into Israel after WWII..
    .........TRUMP fanned the flames, and further disenfranchised
    The Palestinians by moving our Embassy to Jerusalem
    ~~~~~~~~~~ SHORT HISTORY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Under the secret Sykes–Picot Agreement of 1916, it was envisioned that most of Palestine, when freed from Ottoman control, would become an international zone not under direct French or British colonial control. Shortly thereafter, British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration, which promised to establish a "Jewish national home" in Palestine, but appeared to contradict the 1915–16 Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, which contained an undertaking to form a united Arab state in exchange for the Great Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire in World War I. McMahon's promises could have been seen by Arab nationalists as a pledge of immediate Arab independence, an undertaking violated by the region's subsequent partition into British and French League of Nations mandates under the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 1916, which became the real cornerstone of the geopolitics structuring the entire region. The Balfour Declaration, likewise, was seen by Jewish nationalists as the cornerstone of a future Jewish homeland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
  15. S. Korea
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    07 Aug '22 15:40
    @vivify said
    "The victims of aggression are not absolved of their responsibility to conduct their operations by the rules of war."---No1Marauder

    The same applies here when when Gaza does attack civilian targets. That's my one and only issue with Gaza and why harsh reprisals from Israel are understandable. Gaza would be damn near blameless if they stuck to only military targets.

    But ...[text shortened]... the Israeli government.

    This is the vicious cycle people on both sides of the debate ignoring.
    I would also like to point out that the hand has been entirely forced.

    The Palestinians do not have the international support or the attention for any kind of peaceful resistance to be effective. I mean, really, what can they do? They do not have the economic resources to apply pressure. They can't impose some kind of "embargo!"

    They also can't really fight a war.

    So, some amount of Palestinians feel completely humiliated and like there's no path forward other than doing some tit-for-tat actions that can perhaps embolden their cause or expose some weakness, and to also show that they are alive.

    The most important thing is to say

    ... We are human beings and when you treat us like dogs, we will fight back. They need justice, and even if they cannot have justice, they need the fight for justice.

    So, some amount of them resist violently because it empowers them and makes them feel like their friends & family have not died and suffered in vain.

    Is that so wrong..?
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