Clan consultation vote

@mghrn55 said
@Russ

Just wondering if something is going to be done about this individual and associated clan ?
(Page 8)
Thread 180513

Mctayto cheating and laughing at site again..
Serious lack of a life there...

@roma45 said
Mctayto cheating and laughing at site again..
Serious lack of a life there...

Indeed the clan System is wrecked in a number of ways in which McTayto is one of the more evident.
Clan activity has diminished in the recenet years. Should we Keep the clan System at all?

@ponderable said
Indeed the clan System is wrecked in a number of ways in which McTayto is one of the more evident.
Clan activity has diminished in the recenet years. Should we Keep the clan System at all?

Could say the same for tournaments where engines rule at the top end.
Should not be too hard for admin to see whats going on by a certain couple of idiots in the clan games.
A more severe punishment this time around..

@Russ

As this is a thread regarding the current state of the clan feature, I will post some evidence here in this thread.
Normally I post this to the clan forum, but I will make a small exception today.
I promise not to make a practice of it here.
This is a one time posting.

McTayto - some more tossed games.
Game 13297765 guaranteed draw but resigns
Game 13329468 up Q,R and bunch of pawns but resigns
Game 13320225 captures opponent’s Q, then resigns
Game 13342326 up Q, 2R and resigns

More recently, lemondrop who is the clan leader who is responsible for the actions and conduct of his clan members, including McTayto, has started engaging in the same practice.
Some of his tossed tournament games.
Game 13341463
Game 13347339
Game 13341462

I won’t flood this thread with examples. But point made.
McTayto’s tossed games number in the hundreds for the sole purpose of misrepresenting himself in the clan community.
The clan leader Lemondrop is about a dozen or so games into this practice.
That this clan leader who has been on record as stating that he does not vet the activities and online behaviour of his clan members now exhibiting exactly the same behaviour himself is the height of hypocrisy !!
I might add that this pair of individuals are openly taunting the clan community.
And openly taunting site administration.
And openly taunting you, Russ !!

They have tried, and failed, to make this a narrative about one clan, Metallica.

I know that you are aware of what is going on.
After all, you did start this start this thread back in March.
I’m afraid the potential solutions thought at that time won’t solve the issue.
You know that you reinstated McTayto after about an 18 month suspension from clan play.
And how did he respond ??
As soon as his feet hit the ground, he was right back at it !!
And thumbing his nose at you in the process.

If there are concerns about Metallica winning year after year, then you can implement adjustments to the feature to level the playing field.
Sports history is full of such rule changes.
But the cheats will always be there !!
And disciplinary actions have been one constant in sport.
And they are available to you in the clan feature.
At this point, the ball is in your court.
You can protect the credibility of the clan feature.
Or you can preside over it’s continued decline.

@mghrn55

Well said.... now @Russ , what do YOU say???

@mghrn55 said
@Russ

As this is a thread regarding the current state of the clan feature, I will post some evidence here in this thread.
Normally I post this to the clan forum, but I will make a small exception today.
I promise not to make a practice of it here.
This is a one time posting.

McTayto - some more tossed games.
Game 13297765 guaranteed draw but resigns
[gid]133 ...[text shortened]... ou can protect the credibility of the clan feature.
Or you can preside over it’s continued decline.

I completely back this post.

Correct and succinct.

Something needs to be done. How many years of joke clan season results do we have to see before a realistic and enduring fix is made?

@mghrn55 said
@Russ

As this is a thread regarding the current state of the clan feature, I will post some evidence here in this thread.
Normally I post this to the clan forum, but I will make a small exception today.
I promise not to make a practice of it here.
This is a one time posting.

McTayto - some more tossed games.
Game 13297765 guaranteed draw but resigns
[gid]133 ...[text shortened]... ou can protect the credibility of the clan feature.
Or you can preside over it’s continued decline.

Couldn't agree more. I, and a lot of people like myself, only play clan games on the site. If the clan system is going to be hijacked by a few disgruntled players, the same players I might add that have done this thing before, then I for one will not bother paying to play on here. but will drop my subscription and just play games for free.

It's time Russ to address this problem and make the clan feature one that people enjoy playing on as fair a field as possible. The fools wrecking it have been given numerous chances to reform their behaviour but have just continued to thumb their noses at you.

Love playing on this site but a few malcontents have soured the experience for everyone. Get rid of them !!

As right as people are about Mctayto I would also like Metallica to make a statement of tossing games in clan challenges, when the challenges have been decided.
Is that a good behaviour?
I am not in any camp here, but I feel that if we talk about abuse all has to go on the table.

If the games don't affect the outcome I have no problem with it.

@ponderable said
As right as people are about Mctayto I would also like Metallica to make a statement of tossing games in clan challenges, when the challenges have been decided.
Is that a good behaviour?
I am not in any camp here, but I feel that if we talk about abuse all has to go on the table.

I don't speak for the Clan, but myself here. What about people who drag out a challenge that is lost so another challenge can not be started? That is another way of manipulating the ratings and stopping a clan from starting another challenge as only so many Challenges can be made with another clan as is a well known fact.

I have an on going clan game with a person where that very thing is happening I believe we are in the mid 70's in moves and the challenge has already been won by my clan. I could resign it and we still win, but am not as the same person has done this in other clan challenges, then complains about games being thrown that are won in Challenges. He has a history of doing this kind of thing.

He in fact is manipulating my rating by not resigning his lost game, and my Clan from starting another Challenge!! I am sure more will be said on this at a future time. In progress 155 days 13 hours as of now, and still counting.


-VR

@ponderable said
As right as people are about Mctayto I would also like Metallica to make a statement of tossing games in clan challenges, when the challenges have been decided.
Is that a good behaviour?
I am not in any camp here, but I feel that if we talk about abuse all has to go on the table.

As leader of Metallica, I would be happy to respond to your statement.
I will make several points here.

First of all, in my post I noted that that there are those who continually try to change the narrative to be about Metallica.
And this is happening now with your post. And the insinuation behind the post is that the intent is rating manipulation.
This is abject nonsense !!
This is a fantasy borne out of the years’ long running grievance fest that has been carried on by the likes of McTayto, Lemondrop, Carrobie (banned from site), and others.
Unfortunately, a few other members of the clan community have bought into this narrative.
And they believe that this narrative can be pinned to one clan only.

I can shred this narrative in several ways.

First of all, the primary clan goal is to win clan challenges.
And more importantly, to collect the points from the challenges !
It is important to get these challenges closed, especially since Russ had to put in limits of 3 in-progress challenges between any 2 clans.
As a refresher, this came about after the collusion fiasco in 2016 perpetrated by Carrobie (now banned) and, you guessed it, McTayto (banned from clan play), and couple of other characters.

Metallica and any other clan (for those who assume that only one clan is resigning clan games) should be closing out their challenges as quickly as possible.

Further, player ratings are fluid and constantly changing.
I can resign a clan game in a decided challenge and win 2 tournament games on the same day.
And get accused of rating manipulation. Really ?? Really ??
If I am losing a clan game, in a challenge that is or is not decided, and I resign today instead of playing the game out to a checkmate two weeks from now, can I be accused of rating manipulation ?
Because I am lowering my rating today instead of 2 weeks from today.
Really ?? Really ??

Further, manipulating rating using clan games only doesn’t really work as this represents a zero sum process.
Meaning that rating drop one game is nullified by the rating increase the next game.
The point is that rating manipulation for clan games is best done using non-clan games to cancel out the won clan games.
That is what is going on with McTayto.

On another note, I can state with certainty right now that our clan has more than 100 points worth of won challenges waiting to be completed.
That in itself throws cold water on your accusations, in my opinion.
I can also tell you that we face obstacles with our opponents who are losing badly to some of our players, but refuse to resign.
Or even accept draw offers, which do not change ratings significantly, btw.
That is ok. Nothing illegal, maybe unethical but not against the rules.
But don’t whine when we want to collect the points in a challenge that opponents are dragging out, intentionally or not.

Maybe I’ll toss in another piece of irony.
One of my players is about to checkmate his opponent in less than 5 moves in the last remaining game in a challenge that we have won.
That player has refused to resign and is dragging the game out.
This could last another 10 days.
Isn’t that player manipulating my clan member’s rating ?
Resigning the game will increase my player’s rating, correct ?

Do you see how murky this useless debate can become ?

On the other hand, the actions of someone like McTayto are pretty clear cut.
Using non clan games to keep his rating low so his clan leader can set him up for easy opponents is pretty obvious.

It is my hope that this nonsense focused solely on Metallica doesn’t distract from the real issue.
The distraction will just play into the hands of the real cheats.

Have a nice day.

@mghrn55

As you might have noticed I didn't "solely" accuse Metallica. I first made the point that McTayto and Lemondrop are misusing the system.

My own clan never was in a position to win the most clan games or anything.

However the question will always be about what is "fair". As an oldtimer I remember the trick that a bigger pool of players were used by clans. So people joined the clan, got a share of games and left, only to come back for the next share. regardless of who invented the stragtegy (which won't work, since a new member can oly be recruited after all the games of the leaving member have been completed), was it "fair" in any way?

To put the question differently: Does the aim bless the means?

Disclaimer: If Lemondrop and McTayto were banned from ever playing a clan game again I would shed no tear. And I as a captain do not accept challenges from them anymore.

@Ponderable

Fair enough. We can be respectful about our discussions.
The clan feature isn’t perfect. And there can be gray areas in the discussion.
But if too much time and effort is spent on the gray areas, the important issues lose urgency.

I think Russ is aware of what is going on.

@mghrn55 said
As leader of Metallica, I would be happy to respond to your statement.
I will make several points here.

First of all, in my post I noted that that there are those who continually try to change the narrative to be about Metallica.
And this is happening now with your post. And the insinuation behind the post is that the intent is rating manipulation.
This is abject nonsen ...[text shortened]... e real issue.
The distraction will just play into the hands of the real cheats.

Have a nice day.

Perhaps the player who refuses to resign doesn't like being pushed and is just being obstinate
If he had been allowed to assess the situation he may have resigned himself
Perhaps all games would be played in a challenge if the points system was fair
Instead of the stupid way it is now

@padger said
Perhaps the player who refuses to resign doesn't like being pushed and is just being obstinate
If he had been allowed to assess the situation he may have resigned himself
Perhaps all games would be played in a challenge if the points system was fair
Instead of the stupid way it is now

One way to nullify the effect of the cheats is to starve them of games.
If theyt aren't playing games they can't manipulate their rating and suchlike.
There's probably 2 main reasons why this doesn't happen.
Firstly I suspect some clan leaders never read the forums and just accept challenges at face value not knowing about the tactics of some players and clans.
Secondly, I suspect clan leaders become lazy,especially as there seems to be less and less active clans (or so I read a while ago).
I found that when I first took over as leader of the Yorkshire Laikers I used to look forward to finding fair challenges for my players.
However after the novelty wears off it just becomes a chore and the temptation is to just accept anything and propose challenges without any proper investigation just to get it done with.
When I felt I was getting to this stage was when I passed on the baton.
Finally regardless of what points system is adopted there are those who will find a way to manipulate it to give them an advantage, fair or otherwise